The water heater will not provide hot water instantly. This serves two functions: You save water. (+ Calculator), 5 Best Air Purifiers For Allergies In 2023 (+ H13 Medical-Grade HEPA Filters), Is A Tankless Water Heater Worth It? Press either the Up and the Down button to switch between any of these recirculation settings: Here is the list of all the parts you need to install a recirculation pump. This number indicates that the water pressure is high. This may require chasing the supply lines. You can adjust the temperature while the display is flashing. Recirculation Settings by pressing down the OK button. Tankless Water Heater Breaker Size Calculator: What Size Breaker? here are some problems that you may have to deal with in the future or have experienced already primarily found in older Navien heater models; Though not a common occurrence, it is still essential to know how to identify these issues. But, yes, I understand why it seems feasible for the sediment to eventually enter the water flow and cause the change in taste of water. Theoretically Correct vs Practical Notation. When you are installing water system stuff, a lot of things can cause low pressure. Examine the wiring and thermistors condition. Error Code E438 It means the circulation pump is not working correctly. Turn the pump off and dump the vinegar. It is an indication that your warm water outlet thermistor has some problems. The total amount of water needed is 2 gallons + 1.5 gallons + (3 gallons * length of shower). Do we keep the flames on after cooking? However, I have envious of those who have the NPE with the hot button and wifi link. Perhaps not everyone is familiar with the newer manual. Browse other questions tagged, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site. And thats a wrap! First, you need to consider Things to consider when sizing the busiest usage period or peak time. However, if you want hot water fast, these on-demand heaters are not ideal. So, saving water is the main reason for calling a recirculation pump eco-friendly. The recirculation pump will make a squeaking noise if the installer fails to install the primary loop correctly. Unscrew the plug cover with a suitable screwdriver to remove it. This might be a small installation error or a faulty setting. In large systems, however, it may be advantageous to use controlled pumps to enable adjustment of the flow when starting up the system and to be able to apply temperature control. Make sure that the drain hose will empty the scaling solution into the bucket. It also may be as simple as a dip switch in the tankless unit itself. To remedy the issue, consider increasing the gas supply to the heater. What about adding the NaviLink WiFi board and controlling it from your phone anywhere? I bought the. The default setting is usually around 120 degrees Fahrenheit. Hello Sam, you can shut off the recirculating pump to the kitchen faucet. Start by turning off the service valves and removing the hoses. Once again, there are a few different things it could be. There are more options, for example- you can buy a wifi socket. He obtained his Bachelor of Science degree from the University Of Texas at El Paso. The process to take apart the fitting which holds the flow sensor to "blow" it out clean is arduous, requiring drainage of the system etc., and has not solved the problem. You can change the cold water inlet thermistor if necessary. Not really. I can figure out occupied or not from a home automation or alarm system. Open the hot and cold service ports and turn the pump on. To change the water temperature; Check this too: Richmond Water Heater How to & Troubleshooting Guide. Contents show Is this noise normal coming from my Navien tankless heater? Navien NPE-240 A Recirculation Line www.amazon.com/shop/miheatingguy Milwaukee 2131-20 M18 ROCKET Dual Power Tower Light Hot Water Recirculating Loop Owen Perkins 81K views 3 years ago NAVIEN. What I imagined would happen is 3-4 seconds of cold and then super hot water that was just waiting for me from the recirculation. You just have to set the timer as you use it. Here is the final install. Also, make sure you get the 1- pipe for the horizontal manifold, which will help even out the flow of the recirculators. I bought the remote PB you referenced above and the specs on it say it uses 12 VDC, but I couldn't find anywhere whether the 12 V supplied by the Navien board is either AC or DC. We have to keep the valve on and slowly hot water comes out. Now you have your socket, turn it off/on whenever you want! The short answer is no, your water will still be pure. Works great and saves the copper pipes. Can you turn it off in a tankless that has it built in? The recirculation pump saves on water bills by reducing the time to get hot water. Can I swap out the mainboard in the NR240A to an NPE240A board to get all that features? Find applications from Grundfos related to this subject. The error code E445 tells about the defect of the bypass mixing valve. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. Does anyone know the logic behind how Navien controls their internal recirculation pump when it is circulating with an external loop? To calculate the size of the heater, you will need to add up the amount of water required at a particular time. However, many first-time and beginner road travelers and RV How to Connect a Generator to Your Tiny House Without a Transfer Switch. A place for plumbing advice and help. We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. These are the 3 most often recommended brands for tankless water heaters with recirculation pumps. We might be able to do something about it. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. Let's hop in! The operations manuals above cover all Navien NPE-A and NPE-S series condensing tankless water heaters. On the other hand, if you find no foreign stuff, ensure you purge the air out of the system. I am contemplating getting the NPE-180A and controlling the pump with a remote control in each bathroom. What Parts Are In The Hot Water Circulation Pump Kits? qc = the circulating water flow [m3/s] A while ago we had a plumber/friend install a Navien tankless water heater. In fact, with a tankless water heater, you face double trouble (thats why youre not getting hot water fast): Because we need to wait longer for hot water in the case of tankless water heaters vs. traditional water heaters, it makes sense to minimize that time in tankless heaters even more. However, whenever I turn on the cold water at the kitchen sink for a few seconds the tankless unit starts to run (heat water) even though I dont want heated water. Flush the vinegar out of your water heaters. Call Navien and explain if yours is older. Make sure to follow the required instructions before and after youve turned it off for your safety. Press the reset button to reset your device. All in all, its important to understand that recirculation pumps are worth the money. It provides information about the problem with the fan motor. If you have come back from a vacation, first turn on the main water valve. Both types of systems have similar pros and cons. Here are some simple instructions on how to turn on your Navien tankless water heater. Pump the white vinegar into the cold side, up through your water heater, and out the hot side. Yes, you can turn off your hot water recirculating pump. How Does A Hot Water Recirculation Pump Work? The leading causes of the intermittent flame; You can fix these issues by maintaining and cleaning the heater. Reconnect the power supply to the water heater. The setup is correct and the only two settings you need are P.12 for recirculation time and P.16 for length of recirculation line from farthest point in the house. We have 6 Navien NR-210A manuals available for free PDF download: Service Manual, Operation & Installation Manual, Installation Manual, Owner's Operation Manual, Quick Installation Manual Navien NR-210A Service Manual (179 pages) NR/NP Series Tankless Gas Water Heater Brand: Navien | Category: Water Heater | Size: 21.79 MB Table of Contents That means that all the costs of the hot water circulation pump are covered by the water savings. It means the circulation pump is not working correctly. Therefore, I can't drain the system. Thanks! If it does, you could trigger the operation to save money whenever your system detected 'away' or however you've got it programmed. In his spare time, Oscar loves tinkering with electronics. You can also identify and fix them yourself. If youre using this pump and cant fix it yourself, you can call a professional mechanic to fix it. Is the plumbers reasoning valid here? Hi Patrick, thats a good insight. Some sort of noise out of your Navien recirculation pump is normal. However, the hot water had to travel from your water heater to the faucet for you to use. These are the kinds of issues that can occur if you aren't aware of the automatic appliances that are connected to your system (and don't shut them off along with the water). If you have a Navien tankless water heater this can be done by simply pressing a . Then, read the manual on Navien tankless water heater how to reset. Step 1 Remove the plug from the socket on the end of the wire that connects to your circulator pump. To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers. That means that this household wasted 8 gallons of water per day just waiting for hot water. It can take anywhere from 10 seconds to 1 minute for the hot water to reach the faucet. The timer has control over when the pump is working continuously. = heat loss from the circulation system [kW] Site design / logo 2023 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA. Besides, the E782 indicates that there is something wrong with the main panel communication. 2. Free returns are available for the shipping address you chose. From the valve, try to loosen up the cap to remove air from the system. Thats why turning off your pump is important when youre not using it. Remove the inlet filter and wash it under the running water with the help of a brush. Why Does My RV Carbon Monoxide Detector Keep Going Off? For example, if you get the tees backward, the recirculation pump will not function properly. You can install it yourself (DIY circulation pump installation) or call a professional; more on that in the part about how much do hot water recirculating pumps cost. Otherwise, this will cause the shut-off valve to get damaged. Follow the steps below to clean your Navien water heater; Note: If you are unsure of your ability to handle this task, hire a professional to clean the heater. However, some gas needs to be used to heat water for the pump to circulate; the gas usage for this is pretty much insignificant relative to how much gas we use when powering the instant hot water heater. Stack Exchange network consists of 181 Q&A communities including Stack Overflow, the largest, most trusted online community for developers to learn, share their knowledge, and build their careers. By installing a hot water circulation pump, you will have a hot shower right away. Also, did you wire the PB from the Hot Button kit or only use the remote? Below are different Navien water heater error codes and their solutions; Navien error code 003 how to fix indicates that there is an ignition failure in your unit. Not only that, by now you should know how to turn it off and why its important to do so. It does save you water but it also costs you a bit of electricity. It shows that the heating return thermistor is not working correctly. I broke down all the possible reasons that cause your Navien Recirculation Pump to produce a humming noise. Question: How much does it cost to buy a water recirculating pump? Where does this (supposedly) Gibson quote come from? Plug n play (after removing front panel to access the plug). they have an accessory called the HotButton (PZZZ-00046). You just have to unplug the pump, and it will be turned off. It is propelled only by water pressure. air), Latent Heat (BTU/hr) = 0.69 x CFM x gr. Allow it to dry and then fix it back. We recommend to use caution and seek the advice of qualified professionals. Having a tankless water heater is an energy-efficient way of getting hot water. Older Navien heater models are prone to flow sensor issues. And the heater has been set to recirculation mode. Air in the line: If there has been a power outage or air has gotten into the line for another reason, the pump can make a lot of noise. Legal Disclosure:Lildutchuncle.com provides and shares information on plumbing, heating & air quality, home improvement, and other DIY projects. Hi Christopher, not really. A hot water recirculation pump can be sized for a given system using the following formulas: Water flow qc = /T x 4200 Timers and wifi sockets are quite cheap. We have some suggestions for you if you want to buy the best wifi sockets. The recirculation timer is set to operate ever 15 minutes, even though we are often not at the property. FREE Returns . If enabled you would find that your hot water is ready to go almost anytime you need it, without a long wait. The electric recirculation pump uses this other pipe to pump the hot water back into the boiler or water heater. Pour two gallons of white vinegar into a 5gallons bucket. It could be open or shorted. Also, check if the electrical cord is grounded correctly or not. However, if it generates annoying or buzzing noise, there is something wrong with the system. Once the tank is thoroughly drained, clean the base of the heater. Not Mounted The Pump Securely or Isolate It, Navien Tankless Water Cycles On And Off [5 Easy Solutions]. What kind of range do you get from the remotes? They are not without upfront costs or disadvantages, but they do offer the luxury of having hot water almost instantaneously and they save you a lot of water. Then what are we waiting for? As well as any future additions, Usage of household gadgets that require hot water, Automatic dishwasher 14 gallons or 1.5 GPM, Washing machine 32 gallons to wash the clothes or 2 GPM. Take care! Press the Power button on the front panel to turn on the water heater. Then, tighten up the cap again once you remove all the air from the loop. The large valves should be in the off position, whereas the service valves should be in the on place. You can contact a plumber if necessary. Hi Howy, well, the circulating pumps are usually powered by electricity, so they dont use gas. Hope this illustrates well why this might be occurring; its a pretty standard thing. Change the thermistor if needed. It should come out of the hot water port. Navien NPE-240s with external recirculating pump. It means there is some issue with a water pressure sensor. I have the newest version pcb since I just bought the tankless. Locate the power button and press it to turn on the heater. Increase water pressure at the water heater. If you have any questions about these pumps, how they work, or some calculations, you can give us the specifics in the comments below and well try to help you out. Is this correct for the function of the system? This gives you a negative return on investment (ROI), so. Hello Frank, one of the disadvantages of recirculating pumps is that you have to wait for cold water a bit. Examine and clean the filter in a cold water inlet. A hot water recirculation pump can be sized for a given system using the following formulas: Water flow qc = /T x 4200 Hi. To install a full recirculating pump system, you need to consult with a plumber because you will need an extra pipe. Going off the grid sounds noble, satisfying and eco-friendly. Circulation pumps can wreck havoc on your lines if you run them constantly due to friction at bends causing pinhole leaks. I recall it was p23 but it was definitely larger than p20. This time of year, we dont need to have instant hot water circulating so we turned off the pump. . Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. This comprehensive guide helps to make the operation and repair of your heater easier. Turning off your water recirculating pump reduces damage. Question: How is a water recirculating pump eco-friendly?Answer: The basic reason is, water recirculating pumps save water. Make sure to follow our instructions properly for the right application. What Is the Difference Between 'Man' And 'Son of Man' in Num 23:19? The E615 tells you about the irregularity in input and memory. I recently had a 240A2 installed. Thats 2,920 gallons of water per year wasted. You are using an out of date browser. Many systems turn on and off automatically to keep the water within a specified temperature range. If a hot water faucet is open, you can adjust the temperature only from 98-110 F (37-43 C). There are no error codes showing. Do you want to know the details? What effect does this have on gas usage for instant hot water? Correcting Navien Tankless Hot Water Heater Installation, We've added a "Necessary cookies only" option to the cookie consent popup, Tankless water heater - not consistent hot water output, Plumbing Manifold Use With a Tankless Hot Water Heater, No hot water if hot water recirculator pump is shut off, warm water only when we replaced the hot water heater with a tankless heater. Its clearly not always running as I can see it says standby on the display most of the time. The cold water pipe coming from the wall goes into the domestic water inlet on the tankless heater, as it should. There is something wrong with limit control. The major difference with hot water pumps in new homes is that you can install a full recirculation pump system (Type #1). Do the plumbers explanations make any sense at all or does it sound like BS? Another suggestion I can give you is to maintain and service your Navien water heater according to the manual. If we take that the average price of water is $0.18/gallon (according to Statistas 2019 study), heres how much you can save on water with a recirculation pump: Water Savings = 2,920 gallons/year * $0.18/gallon = $525.60/year. Turn off the device and examine the APSs condition. Quite surprisingly for most homeowners, the biggest problem with this type of recirculation pump is getting cold water. When you operated the hot water tap the last time you needed it, the water shuts off as soon as you turn off the tap. This time of year, we dont need to have instant hot water circulating so we turned off the pump. Recirculation valve for use with NPE-A series tankless water heaters Designed for recirculation of domestic hot water in applications where a dedicated return line is not available. The E760 informs you that its time to flush your heater. We have a standard gas hot water heater with a circulating pump. If you fail to stop the noise after trying all the steps I mentioned, I bet there is a complex problem with the unit. You need to run white vinegar through the system, to descale the water heater. The Navien is smart enough to stop recirculation when it recognises hot water has made the entire loop. What disadvantages, beside cost???? There is some issue with the front panel key. Below, I will break down everything to stop the buzzing noise. Another sign is the error code display. On a side note, if your Grundfos circulating pump is making sounds, it may have air locks or installation problems. A hot water recirculating pump will save you money, especially if you have a larger family. If you've got a tankless water heater installed that doesn't come with a built-in recirculation pump, then in such a scenario, a separate recirculation pump can do the trick for you. Its really an easy task to do. Ensure that all hot water faucets are closed, and ensure that the internal circulator and any external circulating pumps are off. By clicking Accept all cookies, you agree Stack Exchange can store cookies on your device and disclose information in accordance with our Cookie Policy. You need a check valve on the cold inlet 3/4 pipe also from the looks of the picture, you do not have a true designated recirculation line from your furnace fixture. This depends on how long you leave it on and how often you use it. (Cost Calculations), BTU/h To Horsepower Calculator + BTU/h To HP Chart (To 72,000 BTU/h), Horsepower To BTU/Min: Convert HP To BTU Per Minute (Calc + Chart), HP To BTU/hr: Horsepower To BTU For A/C (Calculator + Chart). Apart from that, you can easily turn it on/off on your mobile whenever you wish. After using this amount of time, hardware gets old and starts to malfunction. air). Foreign materials like small pebbles may get into the recirculation pump. my understanding of the Navien with internal recirc pump is that they work with either an external dedicated return pipe or an internal bypass loop located within the water heater cabinet. A loose part causing unnecessary vibrations, Vacuum in the water lines causing vibrations, A dirty flow sensor leading to gas flow interference and producing weird noises. Is this a common drawback with the under-sink crossover valves, for the heater to turn on when a cold water faucet is turn on? Check if there is any gas leakage before turning it on after a couple of days. All you have to know is how to turn it off. The air will need to be bled out of the system. Navien's patented ComfortFlow system is the first to include a buffer tank, recirculation pump and fine-tuned controls into a tankless water heater, resolving the cold-water sandwich effect* and issues of minimal flow rates commonly found in other tankless water heaters. The error code E441 informs about the open thermistor or short circuit problem. If any of them are loose or disconnected, your circulator pump won't work. Advantages and disadvantages of hot water circulation pumps. And. Make sure to follow the instructions before and after you turn off the pump. DC Wire Gauge Calculator: What Gauge Wire (12V, 24V, 48V)? The buffer tank eliminates the "cold water sandwich" effect and issues of minimum flow rates commonly found in other tankless water heaters. It sounds almost like cavitation or a magnet rubbing against the casing as the recirculating pump winds down. Then replace the heater cover and turn the gas or power back on. Examine the controllers condition and replace it if required. Low gas supply which prevents proper heating of water, Damaged flow sensor preventing proper supply of gas to the heater. We do all the time-consuming research and testing for you. Hi Mike, we think about water as hot vs. cold. Crazy coincidence that I ran into your post because I've been researching the same issue. Overusing your recirculating pump also increases your electricity bill. I got a Navien NPE 240A2 installed in my home with dedicated recirculating line (hopefully I got the lingo right!) He said he tied in both in the master bath and the kitchen but it seems if that were the case at a minimum they would have hot water quickly. Find products from Grundfos related to this subject. When the water is sufficiently hot, the temperature sensor will shut off the power to the recirculation pump to conserve energy. if your water heater has 4 connections (CW in; HW out; condensate; gas) then the recirculation occurs within the water heater - IMO don't see the benefit in this setup as the water in the HW distribution system doesn't see flow . Depending on the size of the pump and installation difficulty, the average cost of a hot water recirculation pump costs anywhere from $200 to $800 (installed). This breaks down the scale and flushes out the sediment. Navien NPE-240 A Recirculation Linewww.amazon.com/shop/miheatingguyMilwaukee 2131-20 M18 ROCKET Dual Power Tower Lighthttps://amzn.to/3pe2hYHMilwaukee M12 Surge Hydraulic Driver Kit #2551-22https://amzn.to/3n5offbMakita E-01563 Impact XPS 3 Pc. Turn off the recirculation when the house is not occupied, in order to save even more energy. Tankless Water Heater Wire Size Calculator: What Gauge Wire (AWG)? But, you can buy a new recirculating pump for $200-400. 5.0 out of 5 stars 3 ratings. Make sure to follow the required instructions before and after you've turned it off for your safety. I have a clog, When the faucet is on the unit is indicating flow rate of 1.4 GPM which seems plenty and the recirculation mode is set to external & always on. Therefore, the only task you can attempt on this list is the gasket replacement for the leaking water connection. For more information, please see our Get a sump pump and connect the cold service hose to the sump pump. Quick summary on costs: Recirculating a pump is certainly useful if you want hot water quickly. Since pumps cost about $200 each, the recirculating pump will pay for itself in 3-4 years. Just locate the air bleeder valve on top of the recirculation system. You also have to flush the heat exchanger. I have a new Noritz tankless water heater that includes an AquaMotion recirculating pump at the heater and a crossover valve under the kitchen sink. To create an energy-efficient full recirculation system, your pump has to come with these two efficiency optimizing parts. $197.08 $ 197. We dont. To remedy this issue, turn off the heater for some time and restart it. Turn off the unit and check the valve's wiring and condition. The second method seems to suggest the cold water at sinks will most likely have been run through the hot water tank. Those are quite significant savings. It may not display this or other websites correctly. 10.6 Maintenance 10.7.3 NPE-180A/240A Pump P-Q Curve The Navien NPE-180A and NPE-240A water heaters that are used . How do I align things in the following tabular environment? I just hooked up the NR-20DU wired remote control ($80 from Fergusons) and programmed 3 on/off recirculating cycles based on family needs. The answer is that leftover water in the pipes has cooled over time. This is done every time you close the faucet. How is an ETF fee calculated in a trade that ends in less than a year? This may temporarily help to remedy the issue. Disconnect the power supply to the water heater. Then what are we waiting for?